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Any experts on Sherlock Holmes?

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Head Penguin
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I've read the whole works of Sherlock Holmes more than once, but there are some bits I don't get. Like in the Valley of Fear. Sherlock Holmes is discussing a secret code with Dr Watson and it refers to a page number in a book:

"Hardly that, Watson. You will, I am sure, agree with me that if the page be given, the number of the chapter is immaterial. Also that if page 534 finds us only in the second chapter, the length of the first one must have been really intolerable."

See, what I don't get. How can they think the first chapter was really long just cos page 534 was in chapter 2? What if chapter 1 was short and chapter 2 was really long?

I have some more questions too.

Danielle xx

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I think Holmes' point is simply that it's redundant to put too much stock in an arbitrary figure such as a chapter number. He's suggesting that the real quantity of work is measured in the pages, not the chapters. Chapters are variant and objective. They can be as long or short as you like, whereas the page numbers actually quantify something accurately - in a way that means something.
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Head Penguin
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Quote by Lupus
I think Holmes' point is simply that it's redundant to put too much stock in an arbitrary figure such as a chapter number. He's suggesting that the real quantity of work is measured in the pages, not the chapters. Chapters are variant and objective. They can be as long or short as you like, whereas the page numbers actually quantify something accurately - in a way that means something.


Well he kind of said that anyway, but that wasn't my question

Who's to say that there wasn't only 150 pages in chapter 1 and 500 in chapter 2?

Danny xx

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I've only read Valley once (vs. multiple readings of Hound, Study, and some of the collections) so I can't really comment without looking back at the context.

Love Holmes, though I tend to stick to "canon" and haven't read many of the non-Doyle stories.
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Quote by DanielleX


Well he kind of said that anyway, but that wasn't my question

Who's to say that there wasn't only 150 pages in chapter 1 and 500 in chapter 2?

Danny xx


I suppose it's simply an assumption. He does say "finds us in chapter two", rather than "on chapter two", so it could be any distance into it, yes. It's merely an exaggerated assumption for effect, I'd say. To me, though, 500 pages for two chapters would point to tedium anyway, one way or another - no matter how evenly the pages are distributed.
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Cryptic Vigilante
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Hmm, I'm really not a Sherlock Holmes expert, but 534 pages seems to be pretty long to only be in the second chapter of a book.

I mean, a lot of books are quite shorter than that (around 200-300 pages) and may contain as many as 10 chapters. Also, the chapters in a book are usually of similar length, hence why one could assume that 'the length of the first one must have been really intolerable'; even if you were at the end of the second chapter, that would be around 267 pages per chapter (more or less depending on the minimal variation in the length of each chapter).

I have no idea what the passage that you quoted refers to, but it seems that Sherlock Holmes just discovered a message at this point, in which someone points to 'page 534 of chapter 2' in a certain book. Sherlock then assumes that this is in fact a secret code, as being at 'page 534 in chapter 2' seems highly improbable in a book, and one wouldn't need to mention the number of the chapter if the page was already mentioned.
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are we talking about the Benedict Cumberbatch Holmes or the Johnny Lee Miller Holmes?

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Quote by DanielleX
I've read the whole works of Sherlock Holmes more than once, but there are some bits I don't get. Like in the Valley of Fear. Sherlock Holmes is discussing a secret code with Dr Watson and it refers to a page number in a book:

"Hardly that, Watson. You will, I am sure, agree with me that if the page be given, the number of the chapter is immaterial. Also that if page 534 finds us only in the second chapter, the length of the first one must have been really intolerable."

See, what I don't get. How can they think the first chapter was really long just cos page 534 was in chapter 2? What if chapter 1 was short and chapter 2 was really long?

I have some more questions too.

Danielle xx




Sadly, Arthur Conan Doyle wasn't as clever as Sherlock Holmes
Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

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Head Penguin
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Quote by SereneProdigy
Hmm, I'm really not a Sherlock Holmes expert, but 534 pages seems to be pretty long to only be in the second chapter of a book.

I mean, a lot of books are quite shorter than that (around 200-300 pages) and may contain as many as 10 chapters. Also, the chapters in a book are usually of similar length, hence why one could assume that 'the length of the first one must have been really intolerable'; even if you were at the end of the second chapter, that would be around 267 pages per chapter (more or less depending on the minimal variation in the length of each chapter).

I have no idea what the passage that you quoted refers to, but it seems that Sherlock Holmes just discovered a message at this point, in which someone points to 'page 534 of chapter 2' in a certain book. Sherlock then assumes that this is in fact a secret code, as being at 'page 534 in chapter 2' seems highly improbable in a book, and one wouldn't need to mention the number of the chapter if the page was already mentioned.


What you've missed is that code was P534 C2. Dr Watson suggested that it was Chapter 2, but it was in fact column 2 of page 534.

Danny x

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Quote by DanielleX
I've read the whole works of Sherlock Holmes more than once, but there are some bits I don't get. Like in the Valley of Fear. Sherlock Holmes is discussing a secret code with Dr Watson and it refers to a page number in a book:

"Hardly that, Watson. You will, I am sure, agree with me that if the page be given, the number of the chapter is immaterial. Also that if page 534 finds us only in the second chapter, the length of the first one must have been really intolerable."

See, what I don't get. How can they think the first chapter was really long just cos page 534 was in chapter 2? What if chapter 1 was short and chapter 2 was really long?

I have some more questions too.

Danielle xx



shall I sit and drink with u Danielle? sounds as if u need company?
I do look good in a deerstalker ... so i'm told..
even when I put my clothes on as well as the hat... so i'm told..
but less enthusiastically ..

Lurker
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Does it really matter? In the last Harry Potter book, JK Rowling got it wrong when she said that, 'The muggles who lived in Grimmauld Place had long since accepted the amusing mistake in the numbering that had caused number eleven to sit beside number thirteen.' Obviously, 11 and 13 would be on opposite sides of the street in England. Authors are human too. I find it kind of pleasing, actually.
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I would say it falls down probability. The likelihood of a book where Chapter 2 is into 534 pages is almost 0. So you can eliminate it from your assumption.
C in that could refer to Chapter, Character, Column etc. But if you have already given a page number then, why use the chapter number? If the chapter is to be mentioned, it should precede the page number and not vice versa in my opinion. And regarding why Watson said C could stand for Chapter is fairly obvious, since when you think of C in a book, your mind immediately jumps to Chapter
Head Penguin
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I've got another one!

This is from the beginning of The Adventure of the Beryl Coronet

'Yet his actions were in absurd contrast to the dignity of his dress and features, for he was running hard, with occasional little springs, such as a weary man gives who is little accustomed to set any tax upon his legs.'

Now, I'm reasonably au fait with the various ways of running, but I can't say I can conjure up anything from my imagination that equates to how Conan Doyle describes this man's actions.

Opinions please...

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Quote by DanielleX
I've got another one!

This is from the beginning of The Adventure of the Beryl Coronet

'Yet his actions were in absurd contrast to the dignity of his dress and features, for he was running hard, with occasional little springs, such as a weary man gives who is little accustomed to set any tax upon his legs.'

Now, I'm reasonably au fait with the various ways of running, but I can't say I can conjure up anything from my imagination that equates to how Conan Doyle describes this man's actions.

Opinions please...

I used to run up the road like that when I was a kid.mPGehSCrXkJ3qHBc
Running along the pavement and leaping over the telephone access slabs, lol.
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Sorry DanielleX if it doesn't follow the theme, but I've to post it here :P


Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson decide to go on a camping trip. After dinner and a bottle of wine, they lay down for the night, and go to sleep.

Some hours later, Holmes awoke and nudged his faithful friend.

"Watson, look up at the sky and tell me what you see."

Watson replied, "I see millions of stars."

"What does that tell you?"

Watson pondered for a minute.

"Astronomically, it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets."

"Astrologically, I observe that Saturn is in Leo."

"Horologically, I deduce that the time is approximately a quarter past three."

"Theologically, I can see that God is all powerful and that we are small and insignificant."

"Meteorologically, I suspect that we will have a beautiful day tomorrow."

"What does it tell you, Holmes?"

Holmes was silent for a minute, then spoke: "Watson, you idiot. Someone has stolen our tent!"
Empress of the Moon
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Quote by DanielleX
Any experts on Sherlock Holmes?


Yes.
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Advanced Wordsmith
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Quote by DanielleX
I've read the whole works of Sherlock Holmes more than once, but there are some bits I don't get. Like in the Valley of Fear. Sherlock Holmes is discussing a secret code with Dr Watson and it refers to a page number in a book:

"Hardly that, Watson. You will, I am sure, agree with me that if the page be given, the number of the chapter is immaterial. Also that if page 534 finds us only in the second chapter, the length of the first one must have been really intolerable."

See, what I don't get. How can they think the first chapter was really long just cos page 534 was in chapter 2? What if chapter 1 was short and chapter 2 was really long?

I have some more questions too.

Danielle xx



I think the bit is about a code as SH is explaining it to Dr. W. From memory....I think Thomas Harris used a similar idea of a 'book code' in Silence of the Lambs when he was having Dr L. communicate with Dolarhyde in code.
Advanced Wordsmith
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Quote by DanielleX
I've got another one!

This is from the beginning of The Adventure of the Beryl Coronet

'Yet his actions were in absurd contrast to the dignity of his dress and features, for he was running hard, with occasional little springs, such as a weary man gives who is little accustomed to set any tax upon his legs.'

Now, I'm reasonably au fait with the various ways of running, but I can't say I can conjure up anything from my imagination that equates to how Conan Doyle describes this man's actions.

Opinions please...


Hmm....I think what SH was saying was really,

"Look at that chap....well dressed and of a certain age.....little bit out of shape too.....he's running as hard as he can with the odd extra burst of speed thrown in - not caring how he looks, such is his desperation and sense of urgency...."
Head Penguin
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Quote by softbear


I think the bit is about a code as SH is explaining it to Dr. W. From memory....I think Thomas Harris used a similar idea of a 'book code' in Silence of the Lambs when he was having Dr L. communicate with Dolarhyde in code.


Oh yeah, I get that they're trying to crack a code. It's the part about page 534 being too far in to be chapter 2, because then chapter 1 would be intolerable. What if chapter 1 was really short and chapter 2 really long? It just seems to be an unfounded assumption.

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Head Penguin
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Quote by softbear


Hmm....I think what SH was saying was really,

"Look at that chap....well dressed and of a certain age.....little bit out of shape too.....he's running as hard as he can with the odd extra burst of speed thrown in - not caring how he looks, such is his desperation and sense of urgency...."


Actually I like that, thank you. It was JW speaking though smile

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Head Penguin
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I've got another one. I've read this over and over and I don't get it...

It's from the Adventure of the Three Students.

SH is describing a pencil, which has been used in a crime...

"“Well, he wrote so furiously that he broke his pencil, and had, as you observe, to sharpen it again.
This is of interest, Watson The pencil was not an ordinary one. It was above the usual size, with a soft lead; the outer colour was dark blue, the maker’s name was printed in silver lettering, and the piece remaining is only about an inch and a half long. Look for such a pencil, Mr. Soames, and you have got your man
."

Then...

"Mr. Soames was somewhat overwhelmed by this flood of information. “I can follow the other points,” said he, “but really, in this matter of the length—”

Holmes held out a small chip with the letters NN and a space of clear wood after them.
“You see?”
“No, I fear that even now—”
“Watson, I have always done you an injustice. There are others. What could this NN be? It is at the end of a word. You are aware that Johann Faber is the most common maker’s name. Is it not clear that there is just as much of the pencil left as usually follows the Johann
?”

Okay, I get the bit about NN being part of Johann Faber etc, but I don't get how he has deduced the length of the pencil. Surely when you sharpen a pencil, you sharpen the tip. If he can see the NN, then the guy decided to sharpen the blunt end. SH then states that there is only as much left as normally follows Johann. But how can he know how much was left of the (unsharpened) pointed end?

Danielle x

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Advanced Wordsmith
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Quote by DanielleX
I've got another one. I've read this over and over and I don't get it...

It's from the Adventure of the Three Students.

SH is describing a pencil, which has been used in a crime...

"“Well, he wrote so furiously that he broke his pencil, and had, as you observe, to sharpen it again.
This is of interest, Watson The pencil was not an ordinary one. It was above the usual size, with a soft lead; the outer colour was dark blue, the maker’s name was printed in silver lettering, and the piece remaining is only about an inch and a half long. Look for such a pencil, Mr. Soames, and you have got your man
."

Then...

"Mr. Soames was somewhat overwhelmed by this flood of information. “I can follow the other points,” said he, “but really, in this matter of the length—”

Holmes held out a small chip with the letters NN and a space of clear wood after them.
“You see?”
“No, I fear that even now—”
“Watson, I have always done you an injustice. There are others. What could this NN be? It is at the end of a word. You are aware that Johann Faber is the most common maker’s name. Is it not clear that there is just as much of the pencil left as usually follows the Johann
?”

Okay, I get the bit about NN being part of Johann Faber etc, but I don't get how he has deduced the length of the pencil. Surely when you sharpen a pencil, you sharpen the tip. If he can see the NN, then the guy decided to sharpen the blunt end. SH then states that there is only as much left as normally follows Johann. But how can he know how much was left of the (unsharpened) pointed end?

Danielle x


Hmm....I think this is what SH was driving at....


Think of a brand new pencil.......(I'm going to be lazy and not link anything but use text) smile


It could rarely be blunt at both ends but in fact brand new pencils virtually always come with a tip ready sharpened....it's rare that they don't. Now we read from left to right and the makers of the pencil will make sure that their name is visible and opposite the sharp end.....so 'Johann Faber' would be stamped on the pencil with the 'r' of Faber closest to the ready sharpened end with the 'J' of Johann quite near the other end......

...then as the tip of the pencil breaks or wears down.....it gets sharpened......at the end that it broke.....because after all why go to the trouble of sharpening the totally blunt end where the 'J' is when with hardly any effort you can sharpen from the 'r' end of the pencil. Now as the pencil get sharpened it gets shorter and the makers name begins to disappear with firstly the 'r' going, then the 'e' and so on until Faber has totally gone and you're left with Johann.....

....now think of how close most makers stamp the first word to the 'blunt' end of their pencils......so to keep sharpening the pencil so much that you've 'eaten through' Faber and then into 'Johann' means that only the 'Joha' maybe left on the pencil....thus to me at least that makes me think the pencil is very short indeed.
Head Penguin
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Quote by softbear


Hmm....I think this is what SH was driving at....


Think of a brand new pencil.......(I'm going to be lazy and not link anything but use text) smile


It could rarely be blunt at both ends but in fact brand new pencils virtually always come with a tip ready sharpened....it's rare that they don't. Now we read from left to right and the makers of the pencil will make sure that their name is visible and opposite the sharp end.....so 'Johann Faber' would be stamped on the pencil with the 'r' of Faber closest to the ready sharpened end with the 'J' of Johann quite near the other end......

...then as the tip of the pencil breaks or wears down.....it gets sharpened......at the end that it broke.....because after all why go to the trouble of sharpening the totally blunt end where the 'J' is when with hardly any effort you can sharpen from the 'r' end of the pencil. Now as the pencil get sharpened it gets shorter and the makers name begins to disappear with firstly the 'r' going, then the 'e' and so on until Faber has totally gone and you're left with Johann.....

....now think of how close most makers stamp the first word to the 'blunt' end of their pencils......so to keep sharpening the pencil so much that you've 'eaten through' Faber and then into 'Johann' means that only the 'Joha' maybe left on the pencil....thus to me at least that makes me think the pencil is very short indeed.


That's a lovely answer and makes perfect sense. No wonder the lecturer couldn't understand lol. It is quite a well thought out piece of writing by ACD

Thank you x

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Makes me want to read Holmes' cases again.

Danielle, no wonder you write well. I bow to your attention to details and dare I say relentless pursuit to know/ satisfy your questions.

And Softbear, you're like a Barron's and Holmes for Dummies reference.

biggrin
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Quote by DanielleX
I've read the whole works of Sherlock Holmes more than once, but there are some bits I don't get. Like in the Valley of Fear. Sherlock Holmes is discussing a secret code with Dr Watson and it refers to a page number in a book:

"Hardly that, Watson. You will, I am sure, agree with me that if the page be given, the number of the chapter is immaterial. Also that if page 534 finds us only in the second chapter, the length of the first one must have been really intolerable."

See, what I don't get. How can they think the first chapter was really long just cos page 534 was in chapter 2? What if chapter 1 was short and chapter 2 was really long?

I have some more questions too.

Danielle xx


Danielle, I know a world expert on Arthur Conan Doyle's work who gave classes at Uni on Doyle's writings. He is retired but calls me every two weeks or so. I can put specific questions to him if you would like that. Just drop me a note with the questions.
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Quote by DanielleX
I've read the whole works of Sherlock Holmes more than once, but there are some bits I don't get. Like in the Valley of Fear. Sherlock Holmes is discussing a secret code with Dr Watson and it refers to a page number in a book:

"Hardly that, Watson. You will, I am sure, agree with me that if the page be given, the number of the chapter is immaterial. Also that if page 534 finds us only in the second chapter, the length of the first one must have been really intolerable."

See, what I don't get. How can they think the first chapter was really long just cos page 534 was in chapter 2? What if chapter 1 was short and chapter 2 was really long?

I have some more questions too.

Danielle xx

...all I know about Sherlock Holmes is that he was a drug addict...