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Kelvin Okafor pencil drawings amaze art critics

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IS THAT A DRAWING??????

xx SF
overmykneenow
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While I can appreciate the huge amount of dedication and skill involved I just can't see the point of photorealism - especially when it's just a copy of a photograph. Whatever he's created was already there before.

For me, it's not art - a craft, maybe - but not art. There's no creativity here, just (immense) skill.
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Dancing_Doll
Alpha Blonde
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Wow. His gallery on FB totally blows my mind. That is unbelievable talent!

I've seen photorealism - but never *that* level of photorealism.
nicola
Matriarch
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Quote by overmykneenow
While I can appreciate the huge amount of dedication and skill involved I just can't see the point of photorealism - especially when it's just a copy of a photograph. Whatever he's created was already there before.

For me, it's not art - a craft, maybe - but not art. There's no creativity here, just (immense) skill.


No creativity? He draws subjects having observed them. That's what artists do, particularly those who are fine artists / who primarily draw. The article states he does a lot of his drawing from memory also, he's not simply acting like a grayscale photocopier.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kelvinokaforart for more.
sprite
Her Royal Spriteness
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omg, that is jaw dropping! fuck *crumples my scribbles up and deposits them in wastebasket* lol - no, seriously, that's just amazing and beautiful

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.

sprite
Her Royal Spriteness
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Quote by overmykneenow
While I can appreciate the huge amount of dedication and skill involved I just can't see the point of photorealism - especially when it's just a copy of a photograph. Whatever he's created was already there before.

For me, it's not art - a craft, maybe - but not art. There's no creativity here, just (immense) skill.


seriously? HAHAHAHA! you don't draw, do you? smile

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.

freakycactus
Active Ink Slinger
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It's incredible, jaw dropping and, just, wow.
crazydiamond
Clever Gem
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It's a tricky debate , is art carbon copies , or is art an expressionist view. But that would then, with this type of art force us to argue photograhy as art as well.
Is art what is perfectly reproduced? so is a photo copy art? it's a tough one. For me art is an artist's expression, interpretation. Has he expressed or just hand rendered a photo copy? .
It reminds me of an austistic artist http://www.stephenwiltshire.co.uk/ in the uk . Is it artistic expression and interpretation, or just that hes compelled to recreate what he recalls in his head.

This really is a good topic of discussion.
What is art, and is just copying with skill? Griding a photo graph and recreating each cube is particularliy achievahle by all who take the time. But is that art?
Especially in th the case of this autistic boy who most likely is not expressing from feeling or expression more so compelled by memory and study.
.
LadyX
Artistic Tart
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Quote by crazydiamond
It's a tricky debate , is art carbon copies , or is art an expressionist view. But that would then, with this type of art force us to argue photograhy as art as well.
Is art what is perfectly reproduced? so is a photo copy art? it's a tough one. For me art is an artist's expression, interpretation. Has he expressed or just hand rendered a photo copy? .
It reminds me of an austistic artist http://www.stephenwiltshire.co.uk/ in the uk . Is it artistic expression and interpretation, or just that hes compelled to recreate what he recalls in his head.

This really is a good topic of discussion.
What is art, and is just copying with skill? Griding a photo graph and recreating each cube is particularliy achievahle by all who take the time. But is that art?
Espeacially in th the case of this autistic boy who most likely is not expressing from feeling or expression more so compelled by memory and and study.
.


Anyone's creation or re-creation is art. It might not be art that a particular person enjoys or values, but that doesn't preclude it from being art. Is there really any doubt that photography is art? Short of using a photocopier (and even then, perhaps it still applies, depending on technique), anything created is an expression to some extent, and we'd all agree that expression is art. It might appear eerily lifelike, but it still came at the hands of an artist, a creator. It's to his credit that it is so hyper-realistic. I'm under the impression that until, well...impressionism, that realism was considered the value standard within the art world. Quality was largely based on the degree of realistic depiction.

As for the man with those amazing drawings, has he said that he's compelled to draw, as opposed to desiring to create? Either way, it looks very much like art to me.
WellMadeMale
Constant Gardener
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Meh, what is pornography? Should we believe the opinions of The Meese Commission?


This smells like art, looks like art, sells like art.... must be art. And some damned fine talent the fellow has developed.
The same GQP demanding we move on from January 6th, 2021 is still doing audits of the November 3rd, 2020 election.
MissyLuvsYa
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He must be a very patient man to take the time to do photo realistic art. Beautiful art though!
MrNudiePants
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Quote by overmykneenow
While I can appreciate the huge amount of dedication and skill involved I just can't see the point of photorealism - especially when it's just a copy of a photograph. Whatever he's created was already there before.

For me, it's not art - a craft, maybe - but not art. There's no creativity here, just (immense) skill.


I don't think it's possible for a human to faithfully recreate an image he saw without imbuing that recreation with something of his own personality or biases. Artists are not mere photocopiers. The photons pass through thin air, and impact on the artist's retinas. The image created passes through an unknown number of filters in the neurons before the brain registers is and decides what it looks like. The brain guides the hand to move the pencil in order to make marks that display what the brain interpreted those original photons to appear to be. As an (extremely amateur) photographer, I'm always striving to snap photos that not only look like the subject, but look like what the subject looks like... to me. I can't imagine the amount of talent this man must have in order to produce his images so perfectly.
Magical_felix
Wild at Heart
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Quote by overmykneenow
While I can appreciate the huge amount of dedication and skill involved I just can't see the point of photorealism - especially when it's just a copy of a photograph. Whatever he's created was already there before.

For me, it's not art - a craft, maybe - but not art. There's no creativity here, just (immense) skill.





Holy shit.




What is art but a mere harnessing of skill?

Why don't you tell us your process for your contest entry... Scotch bonnet? ...since you know the difference between art and skill. That's a serious question.

I would like to be enlightened on the difference between art and skill, and how it relates to contemporary art. Wether it applies to abstract art since that is a copy of nothing and if it applies to art forms like say: music, graffiti or calligraphy. Three art forms that rely heavily on repetition and the honing of skill.

Since this is just a skill.. What kind of art isn't a skill? Tell me when a skill transcends itself to become art.

What is the difference between art and skill on display?
overmykneenow
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overmykneenow
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My personal opinion is that photorealism isn't an art form as it's using other media to emulate the mechanical and chemical process of photography.

That doesn't mean that photorealistic technique cannot be used in art. No, I'm not an artist nor an art critic, but I know what I like, and I like the work of Gerhard Richter. These guys are art critics and can explain it a lot better than I can... (look out in particular for his portraits of his daughter, Betty, and his paintings of 9/11)

Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

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overmykneenow
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Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

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Magical_felix
Wild at Heart
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Quote by overmykneenow
http://www.lushstories.com/forum/yaf_postst6_Forum-Posting-Guide.aspx
Personal disputes

Please do not use these forums for personal disputes, heated debates, flame wars etc. You are expected to treat each other with respect in the forums and take any personal disputes to a private mode of discussion off the forums. If you should find that your discussion is becoming too heated or someone is becoming far too passionate about their argument, please take the discussion to private message or email.



Awww where did the big bad man that said he would steal my online lady-friends go?

Plus, I am asking you about art because of your bold statement you made. I mean, you called the man's work a craft... Like if he would have glued some construction paper together and sprinkled some glitter on it... I figured such a bold statement could only be made by one that knew what art was.

These guys are art critics and can explain it a lot better than I can...


Since you can't explain it in your own words, a clear sign of not understanding what you are talking about, I watched the video. Not one of those paintings made me wonder if it was a photograph or a painting.

So when an ordinary artist paints still life, it's art because he can't make it look as realistic as Kelvin Okafor? Since this guy is so good his work isn't art because it looks like another art form? If a photographer takes a picture of an apple, then Kelvin Okafor comes in a draws the same apple... The photographer created a piece of art and Kelvin just made a piece of ______? I don't even know what word to use here.

Do you realize that a lot of painters take pictures of the things they find interesting to paint later. What is the difference? That Kelvin is too good? LOL

I don't even know why I typed this all out. I don't really expect a serious reply.
sprite
Her Royal Spriteness
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Quote by crazydiamond
It's a tricky debate , is art carbon copies , or is art an expressionist view. But that would then, with this type of art force us to argue photograhy as art as well.
Is art what is perfectly reproduced? so is a photo copy art? it's a tough one. For me art is an artist's expression, interpretation. Has he expressed or just hand rendered a photo copy? .
It reminds me of an austistic artist http://www.stephenwiltshire.co.uk/ in the uk . Is it artistic expression and interpretation, or just that hes compelled to recreate what he recalls in his head.

This really is a good topic of discussion.
What is art, and is just copying with skill? Griding a photo graph and recreating each cube is particularliy achievahle by all who take the time. But is that art?
Especially in th the case of this autistic boy who most likely is not expressing from feeling or expression more so compelled by memory and study.
.


using this argument leaves us open to say that photography isn't an art. the art is in finding the perfect moment, the perfect point of view, to capture what the photographer, or in this case, the artist is seeing and to evoke an emotion in the viewer. personally, it worked for me - the original picture posted here is not only amazing on a purely technical level, but the emotions of the subject shine through as well - it left me with a sense of awe and of inspiration, it left me with wonder and vibrancy. it touched me, not just on a technical level, but on an emotional one. it is pointing out the beauty of this one man and, in doing so, it's point out the beauty inherent in all of us, in humanity.

also, to me, art should be something that makes you thing - that we are having this discussion, about what art is, already proves that he is successful on that level, getting us to thinking about the nature of art, what it is, how it affects us, how we each separately define art vs craft. after a visit to a modern art museum, my wife and i spent the entire car ride home debating whether a simple painting, one shade of purple on a canvas, was truly art, and in the process defined what art meant to us individually - in the end, we reluctantly came to the decision that, although neither of us liked it, it could be called art simply because it made us think and feel (the feelings were along the line of 'that was just plain stupid' lol) but, IF that was the creators intention, then he was successful!. smile

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.

Toxx
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art is any medium which compels an emotive response, whether that response is good or bad, as long as it moves your senses, art can be found everywhere and anywhere, only you can label it as art because everyone perceives things differently. I draw ( and I like to think i'm pretty good ) but I dont consider myself an artist, however I love art, but what I consider art you mightn't.
Toxx
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art is any medium which compels an emotive response, whether that response is good or bad, as long as it moves your senses, art can be found everywhere and anywhere, only you can label it as art because everyone perceives things differently. I draw ( and I like to think i'm pretty good ) but I dont consider myself an artist, however I love art, but what I consider art you mightn't .
Toxx
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art is any medium which compels an emotive response, whether that response is good or bad, as long as it moves your senses, art can be found everywhere and anywhere, only you can label it as art because everyone perceives things differently. I draw ( and I like to think i'm pretty good ) but I dont consider myself an artist, however I love art, but what I consider art you mightn't .
overmykneenow
Active Ink Slinger
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Quote by sprite


using this argument leaves us open to say that photography isn't an art. the art is in finding the perfect moment, the perfect point of view, to capture what the photographer, or in this case, the artist is seeing and to evoke an emotion in the viewer. personally, it worked for me - the original picture posted here is not only amazing on a purely technical level, but the emotions of the subject shine through as well - it left me with a sense of awe and of inspiration, it left me with wonder and vibrancy. it touched me, not just on a technical level, but on an emotional one. it is pointing out the beauty of this one man and, in doing so, it's point out the beauty inherent in all of us, in humanity.

also, to me, art should be something that makes you thing - that we are having this discussion, about what art is, already proves that he is successful on that level, getting us to thinking about the nature of art, what it is, how it affects us, how we each separately define art vs craft. after a visit to a modern art museum, my wife and i spent the entire car ride home debating whether a simple painting, one shade of purple on a canvas, was truly art, and in the process defined what art meant to us individually - in the end, we reluctantly came to the decision that, although neither of us liked it, it could be called art simply because it made us think and feel (the feelings were along the line of 'that was just plain stupid' lol) but, IF that was the creators intention, then he was successful!. smile


I was lucky enough to catch the Cartier-Breeson exhibition at the MoMA in 2010, which was certainly enough to convince me (if I needed convincing) that photography can be art.

There is beauty in the image as you describe but for me it's a drawing of a photograph, not the drawing of a person. There is a distinct difference.

In the clip in the OP we see a portrait of Mother Teresa. I can be pretty sure that Okafor, who would have been 12 at the time of her death, didn't take that photograph. What warmth, depth and emotion in the image (and hence everything that I think can be called art) was captured in the original picture by the photographer not the person who copied it - even if it was "from memory". The portrait of Elizabeth Taylor is a picture taken before he was even born. If you reproduce something in a style that can't be differentiated from the original are you not just copying, no matter how much effort it takes?

Yes, a lot of people can look at a Klein blue square and think "meh", but you're right that's what art can do.

So what about all the effort and skill? Let's say I write a story, but instead of tapping it into word processing software I decide that I'd rather take a piece of paper and a 2B pencil and meticulously draw each letter in the style of mechanical type. Slavishly giving a tiny rotation to every "e", an almost imperceptible lift to every "t" and a tiny nick out of every "l". After many, many hours, if I possessed the skill required, it would look for all the world that I had used an old fashioned typewriter to write it.

Would my story be any better?
Warning: The opinions above are those of an anonymous individual on the internet. They are opinions, unless they're facts. They may be ill-informed, out of touch with reality or just plain stupid. They may contain traces of irony. If reading these opinions causes you to be become outraged or you start displaying the symptoms of outrage, stop reading them immediately. If symptoms persist, consult a psychiatrist.

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Magical_felix
Wild at Heart
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Quote by overmykneenow


So what about all the effort and skill? Let's say I write a story, but instead of tapping it into word processing software I decide that I'd rather take a piece of paper and a 2B pencil and meticulously draw each letter in the style of mechanical type. Slavishly giving a tiny rotation to every "e", an almost imperceptible lift to every "t" and a tiny nick out of every "l". After many, many hours, if I possessed the skill required, it would look for all the world that I had used an old fashioned typewriter to write it.

Would my story be any better?


Yes, it would be better. Way better.

That would take ten times the creativity and one hundred times the patience and dedication (both of which I doubt you possess) than just pumping out a story. People could not only read it, they could admire the time and detail it took to make each letter. People wouldn't just hang on every word, they would hang on every letter. Kinda like how they hang on every pore or wrinkle in Okafor's work. Actually, a skilled artist could give your story this treatment and elevate it to high art, not just a fuck story (or photograph as is the case with Okafor and his subjects). You can't display your story on a computer screen in an art gallery. No one would care. BUT if you give it the hand drawn treatment they would display each page behind magnified glass for everyone to appreciate and it would actually be interesting. It would be art...

You even said.

"Slavishly giving a tiny rotation to every "e", an almost imperceptible lift to every "t" and a tiny nick out of every "l""


That would take an immense amount of creativity and control... Especially if it's from memory. It's impressive enough to hand draw just one perfect letter, but to make it look like it was made by an old fashioned typewriter? Incredible.

Okafor using a photograph to create high art is like a director using sets, costumes, and actors to create something greater, a film.

Next time you go to MoMA pay more attention.
LadyX
Artistic Tart
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So what about all the effort and skill? Let's say I write a story, but instead of tapping it into word processing software I decide that I'd rather take a piece of paper and a 2B pencil and meticulously draw each letter in the style of mechanical type. Slavishly giving a tiny rotation to every "e", an almost imperceptible lift to every "t" and a tiny nick out of every "l". After many, many hours, if I possessed the skill required, it would look for all the world that I had used an old fashioned typewriter to write it.

Would my story be any better?


I'm not sure we can say that it would be 'better', as that's subjective. But clearly it would add complexity to the entire endeavor, and thus I think it would be more interesting. On one hand, it would have no bearing on the literary value, because the words would be exactly the same as if you'd typed it in a computer and posted it somewhere. But on the other hand, the experience of reading the words would be different under those circumstances. I'd argue that a story written in Comic Sans is going to be experienced differently than a story written in Times New Roman, just as a painting will be experienced differently depending on the style of frame that is used. In other words, the context around the generally accepted 'meat' of the piece definitely matters.

In this case, I'd look for the significance of hand-replicating mechanical type as a font, assuming I knew that's what you did. Upon finding this out, it would take on a lot of weight. "Why did he do this? Is it to give a historical feel to the story? Should it be read as if it's a first draft from times past? What is it about this piece that seemed to call for something other than a digital word processor program on a Mac or PC?"

And perhaps, if given the opportunity to answer these queries, you'd simply say: "It's what I like to do. There's no inherent symbolism there, nor do I intend it as any sort of atmospheric layering on the story itself. I'm simply a world class lettering artist and love to do it."

The difference here, I suppose, is that you might encounter those among us who would question whether lettering is an art or not. Personally, I think it is. But who among us would say that drawing, especially in the case of figures and portraits, isn't art? Perhaps you, and thus this 'is it really art' tangent. I can't see his creations as something that isn't art.
WellMadeMale
Constant Gardener
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Quote by sprite
seriously? HAHAHAHA! you don't draw, do you? smile


I do, and I went to school to polish my skills.
The same GQP demanding we move on from January 6th, 2021 is still doing audits of the November 3rd, 2020 election.
Guest
Lurker
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I, personally, think we are all entitled to our opinions on what 'art' is and whether we like it or not. Art is subjective, personal and open to interpretation.

You can think something is good - and not think it's art... you can also dislike something - but still think it's art. To switch this onto music...I have a pretty strong disliking of rap...but I can still appreciate the talent and artistic/musical input within.

I think the majority of us have been in an art gallery at some point in our lives and gone 'wtf, that is NOT art'. Recently I went to the beach with a friend who works as an artist....she had painted a tyre gold and rolled it in the sea. She then proceeded to take numerous photos of this. I asked her what the thoughts, ideas and concepts were and she said 'oh, I don't know. I don't have any. I was hoping the viewer might be able to come up with something when they look at it'. Is that art? Well, not to me. But you should have seen people coming up with deep thoughts, whilst raving about the wonder that is a gold tyre in some dirty water, when it came to the exhibition.

Art is SUBJECTIVE. What even IS the definition of art? It goes a lot further than simply a dictionary definition...and the beauty is that we can all have our own, different, varying and personal definitions of what art is, what's good and whether or not we like it.
sprite
Her Royal Spriteness
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sometimes art is simply taking what exists and adding yourself to it - in Kevin's case, while they are photorealistic, i have to wonder how much of himself he added - a simply shift of the eyes, a hint of an upturned lip, more defined crease to create a sense of weariness - those would be decisions he made to create or change the emotion of the piece. personally, i find them moving, they have become, in a sense, fictional characters thru the medium, taking on a life of their own.

You can’t truly call yourself peaceful unless you are capable of violence. If you’re not capable of violence, you’re not peaceful. You’re harmless.